I would like to know the source that Dr. Marine used to state that there were "thousands of deaths were reported to VAERS" related to Covid vaccines.
Indeed there were thousands of deaths reported to VAERS but less than 100 (2021-8/23) were temporarily related to myocarditis. And a temporal relationship does not establish causation.
Overall for deaths occurring 7-42 days after vaccination, the observed reporting rates were LOWER than expected background rates.
I find Dr. Marine's post incomplete and misleading.
Autopsies were not done, and innumerable deaths were falsely attributed to Covid. Our data are irreparably compromised. Of 3 sudden deaths and 14-15 serious AEs in our small circle of F&F, not a single one was reported to VAERS. We tried to warn them.
Vaccine-associated myocarditis was most prevalent in young men - a demographic in which sudden cardiac death is otherwise very rare. If there had been thousands of such deaths, one would think someone (such as yourself) would have noticed and reported on it.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the absence of evidence makes strong opinions difficult to support.
Thanks for your comments. As others have noted, events reported to VAERS do not prove causation. They raise safety concerns, and some people been concerned they were not addressed as vigorously as they should have been, due to concerns about causing "vaccine hesitancy."
I couldn’t hit the “like” button fast enough. Thank you so much for a sensible, data supported article on a topic that is still on many minds. Knowing observant, conscientious physicians are paying attention gives me so much more confidence in the future of medicine- I was genuinely becoming fearful when mRNA was being touted as a miracle solution by so many in the medical community when relevant contradictory studies were ignored.
There are very few "medical miracles," much as we may wish to believe in them. We do have many effective therapies, when properly applied to the right population with cognizance of risks and benefits.
I wrote a paper about the death in the USAF from cardiac causes. There were 4 confirmed smallpox myocarditis ( culture and EM pics of virus ). I met with a general and he asked how many deaths. There were 4 over 20 years. Its a historical issue now as the virus is no longer live, but the answer was the risk of smallpox in warfare was thought to be real and this was an "operating cost" . At the same time the risk of any DEATH was dramatically LOWER in the military for young adults in peacetime as they are not driving...A good friends daughter had covid vaccine myocarditis. One wonders with MRI if we will see the scarring be significant and will be the EP docs future problems
Thanks for sharing this story. I have heard from other military doctors about the cautionary tale of smallpox vaccination. I believe that the US stopped vaccinating children with smallpox prior to global eradication for similar reasons. We also stopped using OPV for polio in the US around 2000 because it was causing more cases of paralytic polio than it was preventing. It illustrates the larger challenge of weighing risks and benefits of vaccination when the incidence of disease falls to zero. At that point, even very rare ADEs that may be undetectable in clinical studies may become clinically relevant. It is a challenge that the vaccinology community is not openly discussing.
As to the potential long-term effects of subclinical myocarditis, whether from covid or the shots, this will be a challenging question to answer. In EP, we commonly see patients with ventricular arrhythmias and MRI scans showing small amounts of LGE - we usually attribute to "healed myocarditis" without uncovering a root cause. It would probably require a very large signal to attribute a change in incidence to either covid or the shots.
Thank you for the excellent perspective on the mRNA vaccines. These important principles should be applied across the board for all pharmaceuticals. Two things are necessary to bring about effective change.
1. End all government funding and other forms of subsidies for pharmaceutical research. It has become a sinkhole of corruption and an enormous waste of resources.
2. Repeal all laws and policies that exempt pharmaceutical and medical device manufacturers from legal liability for the harms they cause.
Absent those two fundamental changes, all talk about reform is just whistling past the graveyard.
Thanks for your comment. Corporate welfare is hard to quit - there will probably always be some for pharma. As for liability exemptions, I also question why they are necessary. If the liability system is unfair to vaccine manufacturers, it seems to me that the right thing to do is to reform it to make more fair to everyone (including doctors).
Yes, eliminating corporate welfare would not be easy (or, likely possible). That is why it has to be applied broadly---no exceptions. Applying the same legal standards for liability should be easier---just eliminate the exemptions. Unfortunately, any such changes would require honesty and political courage which are both in short supply.
I think there is a general perception that the CDC and public health establishment was slow to recognize the problem of myocarditis in young males so as not to cause "vaccine hesitancy." I will try to find a more concrete reference.
If you offered a citation that does not say what you claimed it supports, that is rather disappointing - perhaps disingenuous. In 2023 there was a fair amount of data available (published) on vaccine-associated myocarditis in young men, but the data I saw in those papers didn’t indicate serious or long lasting sequela in most cases…
I studied this question diligently in 2023. The published material did not suggest a significant risk. A cardiologist I consulted at the University of Colorado mentioned to me that he was having trouble finding cases for a study of this problem…
Tough to study anything without data. ‘Very likely’ but then - where’s the data? Persons with vaccine-associated myocarditis who then died from complications of said myocarditis are the demographic of interest - and in 2023, the literature I could find didn’t identify many. The cardiologist I consulted was having trouble finding cases either alive or dead to include in his study. So, as they say, show me the money (or in this case, show me the bodies). I would very much like to see the data…
We’re supposed to have faith in mRNA vaccines, based on claims that they produce antibodies and reduce severe symptoms. They want us to ignore the fact that RCTs failed to show a reduction in death or hospitalizations. They want us to ignore the fact that the RCTs showed an alarming rate of serious harms:
“the mRNA vaccines were associated with an excess risk of serious adverse events of special interest of 12.5 per 10,000 vaccinated”
They want us to rely on confounded observational studies instead. They think we don’t know about the healthy user bias. On a different day of the week, when it suits their purpose, they tell us that only RCTs can show causality. They boast about all the lives that were saved, but can’t find a decent study to back that up. We’re supposed to trust them because of their credentials.
They call us anti-vaxxers for failing to obediently believe their faith. They try to destroy the lives of people who criticize the vaccines. They even expect the public to pay for development. Then they find someone to blame for the public’s loss of trust. They are living in a very thick bubble.
Its so refreshing to hear a doctor speak truths about the mrna and its rollout. Most doctors put their heads down still, and don't say a word for fear of retribution from superiors signing their checks. Super hard place to be. Thank you for your courage Dr. Marine.
Excellent article, Dr. Marine. These genetic drugs never passed the test of the “three D’s” that are known for all other pharmaceuticals, including vaccines: DOSE - DISTRIBUTION - DURATION of action. The DOSE isn’t how much they put in your shoulder; it is the amount of spike protein produced by your cells under the direction of the mRNA. That dose is unpredictable. DISTRIBUTION? The mRNA goes everywhere in the body including brain, ovaries, myocardium. DURATION? Not just a few days but reports of 2 years and counting. I agree mRNA might be of value in cancer where potential benefit could outweigh the risk. But as a “vaccine”? No way!
Facts don’t care about your feelings ? Just the facts mom. We need to be protected from bad science. Glad we can have conversations now without fear of losing our jobs
I would like to know the source that Dr. Marine used to state that there were "thousands of deaths were reported to VAERS" related to Covid vaccines.
Indeed there were thousands of deaths reported to VAERS but less than 100 (2021-8/23) were temporarily related to myocarditis. And a temporal relationship does not establish causation.
Overall for deaths occurring 7-42 days after vaccination, the observed reporting rates were LOWER than expected background rates.
I find Dr. Marine's post incomplete and misleading.
Autopsies were not done, and innumerable deaths were falsely attributed to Covid. Our data are irreparably compromised. Of 3 sudden deaths and 14-15 serious AEs in our small circle of F&F, not a single one was reported to VAERS. We tried to warn them.
Vaccine-associated myocarditis was most prevalent in young men - a demographic in which sudden cardiac death is otherwise very rare. If there had been thousands of such deaths, one would think someone (such as yourself) would have noticed and reported on it.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the absence of evidence makes strong opinions difficult to support.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36813704/
Thanks for your comments. As others have noted, events reported to VAERS do not prove causation. They raise safety concerns, and some people been concerned they were not addressed as vigorously as they should have been, due to concerns about causing "vaccine hesitancy."
I couldn’t hit the “like” button fast enough. Thank you so much for a sensible, data supported article on a topic that is still on many minds. Knowing observant, conscientious physicians are paying attention gives me so much more confidence in the future of medicine- I was genuinely becoming fearful when mRNA was being touted as a miracle solution by so many in the medical community when relevant contradictory studies were ignored.
There are very few "medical miracles," much as we may wish to believe in them. We do have many effective therapies, when properly applied to the right population with cognizance of risks and benefits.
I wrote a paper about the death in the USAF from cardiac causes. There were 4 confirmed smallpox myocarditis ( culture and EM pics of virus ). I met with a general and he asked how many deaths. There were 4 over 20 years. Its a historical issue now as the virus is no longer live, but the answer was the risk of smallpox in warfare was thought to be real and this was an "operating cost" . At the same time the risk of any DEATH was dramatically LOWER in the military for young adults in peacetime as they are not driving...A good friends daughter had covid vaccine myocarditis. One wonders with MRI if we will see the scarring be significant and will be the EP docs future problems
Thanks for sharing this story. I have heard from other military doctors about the cautionary tale of smallpox vaccination. I believe that the US stopped vaccinating children with smallpox prior to global eradication for similar reasons. We also stopped using OPV for polio in the US around 2000 because it was causing more cases of paralytic polio than it was preventing. It illustrates the larger challenge of weighing risks and benefits of vaccination when the incidence of disease falls to zero. At that point, even very rare ADEs that may be undetectable in clinical studies may become clinically relevant. It is a challenge that the vaccinology community is not openly discussing.
As to the potential long-term effects of subclinical myocarditis, whether from covid or the shots, this will be a challenging question to answer. In EP, we commonly see patients with ventricular arrhythmias and MRI scans showing small amounts of LGE - we usually attribute to "healed myocarditis" without uncovering a root cause. It would probably require a very large signal to attribute a change in incidence to either covid or the shots.
Thank you for the excellent perspective on the mRNA vaccines. These important principles should be applied across the board for all pharmaceuticals. Two things are necessary to bring about effective change.
1. End all government funding and other forms of subsidies for pharmaceutical research. It has become a sinkhole of corruption and an enormous waste of resources.
2. Repeal all laws and policies that exempt pharmaceutical and medical device manufacturers from legal liability for the harms they cause.
Absent those two fundamental changes, all talk about reform is just whistling past the graveyard.
Thanks for your comment. Corporate welfare is hard to quit - there will probably always be some for pharma. As for liability exemptions, I also question why they are necessary. If the liability system is unfair to vaccine manufacturers, it seems to me that the right thing to do is to reform it to make more fair to everyone (including doctors).
Yes, eliminating corporate welfare would not be easy (or, likely possible). That is why it has to be applied broadly---no exceptions. Applying the same legal standards for liability should be easier---just eliminate the exemptions. Unfortunately, any such changes would require honesty and political courage which are both in short supply.
Great that the trials were conducted and the results used to reevaluate the vaccines. That is what the trials are for, after all!
Question: You state: "The story of the minimization of risk of myocarditis from covid shots in young males is well known (https://substack.com/redirect/8445777c-e169-4ef0-81f1-5ba82c447676?j=eyJ1IjoiNnlwcGRoIn0.zJHoLVSiiExQo9OmT-YH3C3vQT88XGkg2QvnIZ5gI8M)." This reference does not discuss the "minimization of risk". Could you please provide a reference that does?
I think there is a general perception that the CDC and public health establishment was slow to recognize the problem of myocarditis in young males so as not to cause "vaccine hesitancy." I will try to find a more concrete reference.
If you offered a citation that does not say what you claimed it supports, that is rather disappointing - perhaps disingenuous. In 2023 there was a fair amount of data available (published) on vaccine-associated myocarditis in young men, but the data I saw in those papers didn’t indicate serious or long lasting sequela in most cases…
I studied this question diligently in 2023. The published material did not suggest a significant risk. A cardiologist I consulted at the University of Colorado mentioned to me that he was having trouble finding cases for a study of this problem…
Tough to study the dead. Myocarditis induced arrhythmias are very likely a significant factor in the SADS.
Tough to study anything without data. ‘Very likely’ but then - where’s the data? Persons with vaccine-associated myocarditis who then died from complications of said myocarditis are the demographic of interest - and in 2023, the literature I could find didn’t identify many. The cardiologist I consulted was having trouble finding cases either alive or dead to include in his study. So, as they say, show me the money (or in this case, show me the bodies). I would very much like to see the data…
We’re supposed to have faith in mRNA vaccines, based on claims that they produce antibodies and reduce severe symptoms. They want us to ignore the fact that RCTs failed to show a reduction in death or hospitalizations. They want us to ignore the fact that the RCTs showed an alarming rate of serious harms:
“the mRNA vaccines were associated with an excess risk of serious adverse events of special interest of 12.5 per 10,000 vaccinated”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/
They want us to rely on confounded observational studies instead. They think we don’t know about the healthy user bias. On a different day of the week, when it suits their purpose, they tell us that only RCTs can show causality. They boast about all the lives that were saved, but can’t find a decent study to back that up. We’re supposed to trust them because of their credentials.
They call us anti-vaxxers for failing to obediently believe their faith. They try to destroy the lives of people who criticize the vaccines. They even expect the public to pay for development. Then they find someone to blame for the public’s loss of trust. They are living in a very thick bubble.
Its so refreshing to hear a doctor speak truths about the mrna and its rollout. Most doctors put their heads down still, and don't say a word for fear of retribution from superiors signing their checks. Super hard place to be. Thank you for your courage Dr. Marine.
Stunning. Especially the part about the 5% (U.S.) providing the profit margin and R&D.
Yes! “The US public pays nearly all of the profit margin and R+D budget for the global pharmaceutical industry.”
This is a major issue in the unsustainable expense of U.S. healthcare.
Thank God we are seeing intensified review of REAL research results and not media-based “evidence”.
Thank you again, Dr. Marine!!!
Excellent article, Dr. Marine. These genetic drugs never passed the test of the “three D’s” that are known for all other pharmaceuticals, including vaccines: DOSE - DISTRIBUTION - DURATION of action. The DOSE isn’t how much they put in your shoulder; it is the amount of spike protein produced by your cells under the direction of the mRNA. That dose is unpredictable. DISTRIBUTION? The mRNA goes everywhere in the body including brain, ovaries, myocardium. DURATION? Not just a few days but reports of 2 years and counting. I agree mRNA might be of value in cancer where potential benefit could outweigh the risk. But as a “vaccine”? No way!
Facts don’t care about your feelings ? Just the facts mom. We need to be protected from bad science. Glad we can have conversations now without fear of losing our jobs