Listen now | An introduction to a podcast series comparing US and Danish public policy, with a focus on the many differences in COVID-19 response and vaccination policies
Question is the Covid 19 mRNA 'vaccine' a vaccine ? Its mode of action is not as previous vaccines that meet the definition of a vaccine. As I understand it vaccines have a lower a testing requirements.
I was riveted by this, and disappointed the hour was up! I had no idea that other countries didn't require the same number of immunizations for children as the U.S. (18 in Denmark by the age of 18, versus over 50 for American kids by the same age). I would be fascinated to hear the specific science behind every "not recommended" vaccine on the Danish list if you have time to cover them. Are they all based on the reasoning Christine mentioned, that the illness won't make the child terribly ill, and Denmark doesn't vaccinate children for public health reasons, only for the individual's health? My granddaughter just had her 8-week shots, and we couldn't find ANY studies on adverse events for them on the Internet. It's like someone had pushed any critical search results down into oblivion. My daughter wants to be better informed about what to put in her daughter's body!
Excellent podcast. You are keeping us hanging for the HepB discussion, ahhhhh, looking forward.
If I may make one request, its a small one - but actually quite large.
Would it be possible for you to briefly summarize every factual claim made by reference to cited data? Basically a brief summary of the claim (e.g. 3/1M youth covid fatalities) and the relevant citations (preferably hyperlinks).
This would make the knowledge you share more authoritative, easier for listeners to incorporate in their own research, understanding and opinions. It's a tedious task, but it really helps listeners who want to delve deeper into thee topics you discuss.
Thank you Dj Rims. I think the solution to this might be to figure out how we can get a transcript and then I will do my best to state the authors and/or journals of the studies I refer to. I'm sure Christine can do the same. The good thing about a podcast is you can get a lot of information out quickly. The downside is difficulty fact-checking & getting references, but creating a document with references for each episode would honestly be too time consuming unless this were our job. I will keep thinking about this request, though.
I think there is software that can easily generate a transcript, although they tend not to be publishable transcripts, as errors often creep in.
If you are interested I'd be happy to use an auto-transcript as the basis for a list of claims based on prior data, after which you would link the sources. I'd be happy to reach out on a private email.
The body of citations makes your arguments more transparent, credible and open to refutation. Hence, your presentation is more authoritative then typical 'expert opinion'.
Dj, what a great offer! I would love to add study links to a transcript so we have something for the record. It would be awesome for people to have a way to fact check/verify/dive deeper into the studies plus have an official record of what was said. My email address is tracy.hoeg@ucsf.edu. Thank you so much.
I strongly agree with other commenters that this is an outstanding discussion! I particularly enjoy the emphasis on evidence. Lamentably, this is in contrast to the mainstream narrative in the USA promulgated by medicine and public health, as well as most lay media. They're on a mission to skew and cherry-pick data to support their often harmful advice and mandates.
I'm envious of the discussants' body of knowledge on these topics.
Dr Hoeg stated "childhood covid Infection-fatality is 3 in a million". I have three questions:
I believe these victims are typically children with significant neuromuscular disease or other chronic disease. Any idea of the proportion of victims with underlying disease vs generally healthy kids?
As a comparison, what is the childhood infection fatality for seasonal influenza (in a typical year)? I believe it is in the ballpark to this number. But nice to have a more exact number.
Any idea of pediatric covid infection-fatality for recent variants? Dr Hoeg stated recent data is not known, but surely lower than 3/million. Perhaps a colleague has a source for an update on this number?
Yes, influenza IFR in children is similar yearly 2-4 /million according to Norwegian data. I had to do the math myself looking up Norway's pediatric population but here is the main reference for you to check my work: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irv.12627.
IFR of covid in kids very likely less than this 3/million now due to natural immunity and the near (total?) absence now of MISC. And absolutely children with significant comorbidities and life threatening or limiting medical conditions make up the vast majority of the deaths in countries that subtract out incidental deaths. This is a big reason why many have advocated for more of an individualized pediatric vaccination approach for both covid and influenza vaccines.
Oh and source for the updated IFR was this study from the UK finding 0 deaths in children who were previously infected but I would love to see more recent numbers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9872565/
Thank you both for your research and for having public conversations like this one. I really liked the part in the intro where you both explain how you came to be “skeptical” thinkers. I had a similar experience doing a small research project during residency, where I found that a risk factor for a certain disease was based on two decades of very biased observational data. It was eye opening and paradigm shifting for me and how I view mainstream medicine.
Your conversation if clearly understandable for me, a layperson who 3 years ago would never have dwelled on the deeply complicated subject of viruses, the dance of the immune system, the issues of herd and auto- immunity, and on and on.
This interview helped me pull myself out of that reactive slump that was coming on as I read the ‘same old’ large font news headlines announcing the oncoming new COVID variant. The narrative of news in Ontario, where I live, hasn’t changed all that much in the surface, though thankfully it’s well known now that lockdowns are ineffective.
Unsurprisingly there is little in-depth Canadian news coverage about the powerful impact of rising collective immunity, no news I’ve seen about the questionable policy of encouraging booster vaccines in children, and nothing mentioned anywhere about ineffectiveness of masking (Oh, what our dear children have had to endure !!!), or myocarditis in men in their teens, and 20s. Outdated provincial public health policy announcements drive the show. From where do these policymakers get their data, I ask?!
The push is on, but not mandatory, for children and adults get the ‘updated’ vaccine to come this fall. Though, thankfully, I strongly doubt we’ll ever see any attempt to create a govt mandate that integrates COVID boosters in children’s in vaccine schedule. Insane irresponsibility....)
There’s lots of news coverage about long COVID, including amongst children, but with no detailed data about it. I’m concerned the news media’s oversimplified manner of covering the subject of COVID will give rise once again to unprecedented traumatic experiences that millions have had to cope with, including me, as a loving partner, mother, and grandmother.
I have added your Substack to my list of sources for sane and deeply informative discussion, debate, about sound research around the world, about the art of gold standard research, public health policy issues, corporate pharma’s deep influence on research, govt policy, and the cost of drugs, and medical journal selective biases to promote ‘same old’ uninformed narratives.
Thank you for your efforts to share your ongoing research and evolving understandings on these subjects.
Such an excellent discussion. I would be interested in your views in future talks on the HPV vaccine for adolescents. Is there a difference in risk/benefit between adolescent boys and girls receiving the vaccine? I speak as a father of two sons, aged 10 and 15. Many thanks!
Wow! What a great interview, but wait a minute...hold the phone... how...???:
I found Vinay through “ZDogg MD”. I found “ZDogg”, not as a fan but as a person he made fun of. Around the same time I was trying to educate myself about Dr Aaby’s work, I’d also watch ZDogg videos, more out of freakish curiosity. But then one day, much to my dismay, there was this independent thinker on the ZDogg show. It was so weird because suddenly, Dr Damania was actually funny. And dare I say, likable. But point being, Vinay must also know all about the Bandim Health project and their findings in spite of his occasional pro vax comments. I kind of get it now. Dr Prasad is “pro vax” but in the know. As in, I can stop with all my links. I hope you do more podcasts. Here’s what I’m curious about:
I’m in CA where medical exemptions have become illegal. CoVid is actively circulating while all the kids are getting their back to school shots. The CDC schedule is not to be interrupted. For example, my son had an appointment for polio vaccine so he could start school. Thank God I found out through the grapevine he had been exposed to CoVid and canceled the appointment. The very next day, he woke up with high fever/chills and was in bed for 2 days. My son is a senior and we dodged a bullet but all I could think was, what if he had gotten vaccinated as CoVid was incubating? What about these tiny babies who are infected with CoVid but not yet symptomatic and are getting their 6 vaccines at their 2 month appointment? I’m just a layperson, but that sounds really dangerous. Do either of you have any thoughts on the potential non specific effects this could have?
Ok, this is sort of a follow up question, but first the reason I ask: Delta passed through our area at the exact same time 2 yrs ago and I know this because the Dad in our family is once again sick with CoVid on his birthday. He was able to joke that he was having Deja vu, but what if it’s not coincidence? I remember it being a really odd thing that Covid was sweeping through in the summer the first time it happened.
Well, I can’t help but wonder if the primary finding from the Bandim Health Project might have something to do with it. My understanding is that killed virus vaccines help you survive the targeted disease but lower your immunity to everything else. So what happens during late summer? The rush is on to get the kids all up to date on their CDC vaccine schedule so they can enroll in school. Is it possible, the mass amount of other vaccines that are being administered at that time is lowering the kids immunity to CoVid and while many of them may not be symptomatic, it’s more easily circulated?
Also, I meant to come full circle: I found Vinay through ZDogg and Tracey Hoeg through Vinay and now Tracey Høeg is having a conversation with Christine Stabell Benn who I found through Dr Aaby whose work is a big way I became a person ZDogg made fun of, which is the reason I’d sometimes watch his videos. I’m genuinely grateful to ZDogg for his role.
While there are many observational studies on the benefit of the vaccines for the elderly mortality, surely they suffer many of the confounders and other biases that you mention in other sreas?
Thanks! I agree we did not get into so much I wanted to get into the first episode but episode 2 is already recorded and we are able to get into more specifics about childhood vaccines which was fun
Aug 29, 2023·edited Aug 29, 2023Liked by Tracy Beth Høeg, MD, PhD
Well I meant more in the general sense. Obviously you're just getting started in your discussion. But I was speaking about society wide. People didn't really discuss the issue of vaccines or the CoVid situation as a whole. There are so many people who just want to move on and forget about it. Though I was always skeptical. Not in a conspiracy sense, just in the way people spoke about CoVid from March 2020 was too certain.
I would talk about what's going on in other countries and people refused to listen or claimed it only matters what happened in their own country. If the UK or Denmark did something, that didn't mean it was a good idea for say, Canada or the United States, to do it. Which always seemed ridiculous. I think many of the northern European countries made more sensible decisions regarding medicine around CoVid.
Thank you both for an excellent introduction into discussing vaccines and the Covid-19 response differences. I can't wait to hear the follow-up pod casts. So much to learn from each other....it's a shame for differing voices to be silenced by the media and governing agencies. This is what scientific dialogue looks like. Keep it coming!
I really appreciate this discussion! As an expecting mom in California who has sub'd to both Sensible Medicine and Dr Hoeg's substack, I'll be staying tuned. And asking my husband to listen with an open mind, fingers crossed he sees nuances in the conventionally held views on childhood vaccines in the US.
Excellent !
Question is the Covid 19 mRNA 'vaccine' a vaccine ? Its mode of action is not as previous vaccines that meet the definition of a vaccine. As I understand it vaccines have a lower a testing requirements.
I was riveted by this, and disappointed the hour was up! I had no idea that other countries didn't require the same number of immunizations for children as the U.S. (18 in Denmark by the age of 18, versus over 50 for American kids by the same age). I would be fascinated to hear the specific science behind every "not recommended" vaccine on the Danish list if you have time to cover them. Are they all based on the reasoning Christine mentioned, that the illness won't make the child terribly ill, and Denmark doesn't vaccinate children for public health reasons, only for the individual's health? My granddaughter just had her 8-week shots, and we couldn't find ANY studies on adverse events for them on the Internet. It's like someone had pushed any critical search results down into oblivion. My daughter wants to be better informed about what to put in her daughter's body!
Excellent podcast. You are keeping us hanging for the HepB discussion, ahhhhh, looking forward.
If I may make one request, its a small one - but actually quite large.
Would it be possible for you to briefly summarize every factual claim made by reference to cited data? Basically a brief summary of the claim (e.g. 3/1M youth covid fatalities) and the relevant citations (preferably hyperlinks).
This would make the knowledge you share more authoritative, easier for listeners to incorporate in their own research, understanding and opinions. It's a tedious task, but it really helps listeners who want to delve deeper into thee topics you discuss.
Thank you Dj Rims. I think the solution to this might be to figure out how we can get a transcript and then I will do my best to state the authors and/or journals of the studies I refer to. I'm sure Christine can do the same. The good thing about a podcast is you can get a lot of information out quickly. The downside is difficulty fact-checking & getting references, but creating a document with references for each episode would honestly be too time consuming unless this were our job. I will keep thinking about this request, though.
I think there is software that can easily generate a transcript, although they tend not to be publishable transcripts, as errors often creep in.
If you are interested I'd be happy to use an auto-transcript as the basis for a list of claims based on prior data, after which you would link the sources. I'd be happy to reach out on a private email.
The body of citations makes your arguments more transparent, credible and open to refutation. Hence, your presentation is more authoritative then typical 'expert opinion'.
Dj, what a great offer! I would love to add study links to a transcript so we have something for the record. It would be awesome for people to have a way to fact check/verify/dive deeper into the studies plus have an official record of what was said. My email address is tracy.hoeg@ucsf.edu. Thank you so much.
There's a company called Rev that does quality transcripts. They use software but then have a person go through to edit out mistakes.
Wonderful!
How do we get the world (or at least the medical profession) to hear this.
I strongly agree with other commenters that this is an outstanding discussion! I particularly enjoy the emphasis on evidence. Lamentably, this is in contrast to the mainstream narrative in the USA promulgated by medicine and public health, as well as most lay media. They're on a mission to skew and cherry-pick data to support their often harmful advice and mandates.
I'm envious of the discussants' body of knowledge on these topics.
Dr Hoeg stated "childhood covid Infection-fatality is 3 in a million". I have three questions:
I believe these victims are typically children with significant neuromuscular disease or other chronic disease. Any idea of the proportion of victims with underlying disease vs generally healthy kids?
As a comparison, what is the childhood infection fatality for seasonal influenza (in a typical year)? I believe it is in the ballpark to this number. But nice to have a more exact number.
Any idea of pediatric covid infection-fatality for recent variants? Dr Hoeg stated recent data is not known, but surely lower than 3/million. Perhaps a colleague has a source for an update on this number?
Yes, influenza IFR in children is similar yearly 2-4 /million according to Norwegian data. I had to do the math myself looking up Norway's pediatric population but here is the main reference for you to check my work: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irv.12627.
IFR of covid in kids very likely less than this 3/million now due to natural immunity and the near (total?) absence now of MISC. And absolutely children with significant comorbidities and life threatening or limiting medical conditions make up the vast majority of the deaths in countries that subtract out incidental deaths. This is a big reason why many have advocated for more of an individualized pediatric vaccination approach for both covid and influenza vaccines.
Thank you for the additional information and references.
Oh and source for the updated IFR was this study from the UK finding 0 deaths in children who were previously infected but I would love to see more recent numbers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9872565/
Thank you both for your research and for having public conversations like this one. I really liked the part in the intro where you both explain how you came to be “skeptical” thinkers. I had a similar experience doing a small research project during residency, where I found that a risk factor for a certain disease was based on two decades of very biased observational data. It was eye opening and paradigm shifting for me and how I view mainstream medicine.
BRAVO!
Your conversation if clearly understandable for me, a layperson who 3 years ago would never have dwelled on the deeply complicated subject of viruses, the dance of the immune system, the issues of herd and auto- immunity, and on and on.
This interview helped me pull myself out of that reactive slump that was coming on as I read the ‘same old’ large font news headlines announcing the oncoming new COVID variant. The narrative of news in Ontario, where I live, hasn’t changed all that much in the surface, though thankfully it’s well known now that lockdowns are ineffective.
Unsurprisingly there is little in-depth Canadian news coverage about the powerful impact of rising collective immunity, no news I’ve seen about the questionable policy of encouraging booster vaccines in children, and nothing mentioned anywhere about ineffectiveness of masking (Oh, what our dear children have had to endure !!!), or myocarditis in men in their teens, and 20s. Outdated provincial public health policy announcements drive the show. From where do these policymakers get their data, I ask?!
The push is on, but not mandatory, for children and adults get the ‘updated’ vaccine to come this fall. Though, thankfully, I strongly doubt we’ll ever see any attempt to create a govt mandate that integrates COVID boosters in children’s in vaccine schedule. Insane irresponsibility....)
There’s lots of news coverage about long COVID, including amongst children, but with no detailed data about it. I’m concerned the news media’s oversimplified manner of covering the subject of COVID will give rise once again to unprecedented traumatic experiences that millions have had to cope with, including me, as a loving partner, mother, and grandmother.
I have added your Substack to my list of sources for sane and deeply informative discussion, debate, about sound research around the world, about the art of gold standard research, public health policy issues, corporate pharma’s deep influence on research, govt policy, and the cost of drugs, and medical journal selective biases to promote ‘same old’ uninformed narratives.
Thank you for your efforts to share your ongoing research and evolving understandings on these subjects.
👏👏👏
Such an excellent discussion. I would be interested in your views in future talks on the HPV vaccine for adolescents. Is there a difference in risk/benefit between adolescent boys and girls receiving the vaccine? I speak as a father of two sons, aged 10 and 15. Many thanks!
Wow! What a great interview, but wait a minute...hold the phone... how...???:
I found Vinay through “ZDogg MD”. I found “ZDogg”, not as a fan but as a person he made fun of. Around the same time I was trying to educate myself about Dr Aaby’s work, I’d also watch ZDogg videos, more out of freakish curiosity. But then one day, much to my dismay, there was this independent thinker on the ZDogg show. It was so weird because suddenly, Dr Damania was actually funny. And dare I say, likable. But point being, Vinay must also know all about the Bandim Health project and their findings in spite of his occasional pro vax comments. I kind of get it now. Dr Prasad is “pro vax” but in the know. As in, I can stop with all my links. I hope you do more podcasts. Here’s what I’m curious about:
I’m in CA where medical exemptions have become illegal. CoVid is actively circulating while all the kids are getting their back to school shots. The CDC schedule is not to be interrupted. For example, my son had an appointment for polio vaccine so he could start school. Thank God I found out through the grapevine he had been exposed to CoVid and canceled the appointment. The very next day, he woke up with high fever/chills and was in bed for 2 days. My son is a senior and we dodged a bullet but all I could think was, what if he had gotten vaccinated as CoVid was incubating? What about these tiny babies who are infected with CoVid but not yet symptomatic and are getting their 6 vaccines at their 2 month appointment? I’m just a layperson, but that sounds really dangerous. Do either of you have any thoughts on the potential non specific effects this could have?
Ok, this is sort of a follow up question, but first the reason I ask: Delta passed through our area at the exact same time 2 yrs ago and I know this because the Dad in our family is once again sick with CoVid on his birthday. He was able to joke that he was having Deja vu, but what if it’s not coincidence? I remember it being a really odd thing that Covid was sweeping through in the summer the first time it happened.
Well, I can’t help but wonder if the primary finding from the Bandim Health Project might have something to do with it. My understanding is that killed virus vaccines help you survive the targeted disease but lower your immunity to everything else. So what happens during late summer? The rush is on to get the kids all up to date on their CDC vaccine schedule so they can enroll in school. Is it possible, the mass amount of other vaccines that are being administered at that time is lowering the kids immunity to CoVid and while many of them may not be symptomatic, it’s more easily circulated?
Also, I meant to come full circle: I found Vinay through ZDogg and Tracey Hoeg through Vinay and now Tracey Høeg is having a conversation with Christine Stabell Benn who I found through Dr Aaby whose work is a big way I became a person ZDogg made fun of, which is the reason I’d sometimes watch his videos. I’m genuinely grateful to ZDogg for his role.
While there are many observational studies on the benefit of the vaccines for the elderly mortality, surely they suffer many of the confounders and other biases that you mention in other sreas?
A great discussion of the beginning of the story. This definitely has to be fully explored.
Thanks! I agree we did not get into so much I wanted to get into the first episode but episode 2 is already recorded and we are able to get into more specifics about childhood vaccines which was fun
Well I meant more in the general sense. Obviously you're just getting started in your discussion. But I was speaking about society wide. People didn't really discuss the issue of vaccines or the CoVid situation as a whole. There are so many people who just want to move on and forget about it. Though I was always skeptical. Not in a conspiracy sense, just in the way people spoke about CoVid from March 2020 was too certain.
I would talk about what's going on in other countries and people refused to listen or claimed it only matters what happened in their own country. If the UK or Denmark did something, that didn't mean it was a good idea for say, Canada or the United States, to do it. Which always seemed ridiculous. I think many of the northern European countries made more sensible decisions regarding medicine around CoVid.
Thank you both for an excellent introduction into discussing vaccines and the Covid-19 response differences. I can't wait to hear the follow-up pod casts. So much to learn from each other....it's a shame for differing voices to be silenced by the media and governing agencies. This is what scientific dialogue looks like. Keep it coming!
I really appreciate this discussion! As an expecting mom in California who has sub'd to both Sensible Medicine and Dr Hoeg's substack, I'll be staying tuned. And asking my husband to listen with an open mind, fingers crossed he sees nuances in the conventionally held views on childhood vaccines in the US.
Would love to hear a discussion about the Hep B vaccine and differences between the US and Nordic countries.
Heather, Christine and I discuss this in the next episode. Stay tuned!